So, I wanted to put into words how I would present the idea if I were in a debate. The following is what I came up with. Please also see the links in my previous post "Calvinism" to get a fuller understanding and exegesis on the supporting Scriptures.
Rules:
Each presenter gets:
20 minutes opening = 40 minutes total
10 questions a piece to ask the other; One minute responses, 30 second rebuttals for a total of 2 minutes per question = 40 minutes; 1 hr. 20 minutes total
15 minute break = 1 hr. 35 minutes
Questions from audience = 1 minute answers each, for a total of 2 minutes per question; 30 questions in all = 1 hr; 2 hr. 35 minutes total
15 minutes closing statements each = 30 minutes; 3 hr. 5 minutes total
OPENING STATEMENT (Calvinist):
Two men are presented with the Gospel. One man believes unto salvation. The other listens politely and walks away unsaved. Why was one man saved and the other not? What caused the first man to believe and the second to disbelieve? And how did the first man achieve this belief while the second did not? These are the fundamental questions that when answered provide the difference between Calvinism and Armenianism. Does the first man choose to believe in God unto salvation? Or does God choose the man?
For me, the fundamental issue is ability. Does the man have the ability to choose God? And I think the Bible is very clear on the subject. He does not. Not only is man unwilling to hear God, he is unable (1st Cor. 2:14). The ability to believe unto salvation simply does not exist in man. You see, when Adam fell, we all died. Remember, God had told Adam that in the day he ate of the tree he would surely die (Gen. 2:17). And because of Adams disobedience, we ALL are born into that Spiritual death (1st Cor. 15:21-22).
So, what can dead men do? What ability lies in dead men? Can a dead man walk? Can a dead man talk? Can a dead man hear? Can a dead man choose? NO! We are all born dead in our sins (Eph. 2:1) and therefor have NO ability. When Jesus called out to Lazarus to rise from the dead (John 11:43), did Lazarus have the ability to “choose” to rise? Did he have the ability to choose to hear the words of Jesus Christ? No. There is NO ability whatsoever in dead men. In order for Lazarus to hear and to rise, he FIRST had to be acted upon. Christ had to revive and resurrect him FIRST (John 11:25). Then Lazarus had the ability to respond.
And so it is in our spiritual resurrection. When the call of God goes out through the preaching of the Word (Rom. 10:17; 1st Cor. 1:21), we dead men and women simply do not have the ability to respond. In order to hear and rise, we need to FIRST be acted upon. Our dead hearts of stone must be replaced with living hearts of flesh (Ez. 36:26). Our dead ears must be giving the ability to hear (Matt. 13:11-16; Deut. 29:4). Our complete inability to choose anything must be revived and GIVEN the ability. That is the gift of faith (Eph. 2:8). The gift of resurrection and the gift of being reborn.
When we look at the process of being reborn in John 3, it is clear that like the wind (vrs. 8), the Holy Spirit moves upon whom He will when He will. Think about being born. Just like a dead man, a child (pre-conception) does not have ability to do anything. It cannot choose to be created and born. It has to be acted upon. In conception, the unborn does not choose to be brought into life. It is passive in the decision. It is something that is done to the unborn. And so it is with our Spiritual rebirth. No one can choose to be born. They have to be acted upon. And John 3 makes it clear that this action is based solely on the discretion of the Holy Spirit.
Going back to our original two guys, Ephesians 2 states that faith is a gift from God and not of works. For if it were of works, then man would have room to boast. Whatever work he had that the other guy did not have, would elevate him to a position of superiority where that individual would have something that the other lacks. This would lead to boasting. Even if not verbally, internally the individual that has, would have a feeling of accomplishment. This is exactly why salvation is a gift from God. To avoid that whole situation, which at the root is pride, and we know how God views pride (Pro. 8:13; Ps. 51:17) .
So, to the individual who believes in free will/armenianism: What caused the first man to believe and the second to disbelieve? You may say he choose to believe, but choice is reactionary. It is not the first cause. WHY did he believe and the other man didn’t? If you now reject the idea that God choose the one and not the other, the only option you have, is to say that something within the first man exists that is not in the second man.
You may say he was able to reason and see his situation better than the other man. If that is the case, his reasoning ability and perception is elevated above the other man. That is BOASTING. You may say that individual number one was more fearful and humble than individual number two. Again, his attributes of humility and awe would be elevated above the other man. That is boasting. It is so important to realize here that choice is a reaction not the cause. WHAT CAUSES the choice is the vital question. How do dead/unborn people CHOOSE anything? The first cause has to be God ENABLING the individual or it will inevitably lead to boasting, which is pride.
So, when man one and man two were presented the Gospel, they were both dead. Completely unable to hear the Word of God and completely unable to respond to the invitation to be saved. The only way either one of them will respond, is if God the Holy Spirit, moves upon that individual and gives them ears to hear. They will only be saved if the Holy Spirit creates a heart of flesh in them, prepared to receive the Word of God. And with that, the Spirit gives of Himself!
He plants Himself in the heart of the individual and GRANTS them repentance and GIVES them the gift of faith. This is the baptism of the Spirit. His Spirit overcomes the dead individual, bringing with Himself faith and repentance, causing the individual to be born again and resurrected, and giving the individual spiritual ears to hear the message of Jesus Christ! Without the Holy Spirit doing these things, the individual will remain dead and unable to perceive.
It is God’s choice, not ours. Unless God moves upon a person they will remain dead in their trespasses and sins. And the way that God regenerates a person is by giving Himself, through the Holy Spirit (John 14:23). He IS the resurrection. Therefore, whomever He enters He seals and guarantees their salvation (Eph. 4:30; Eph. 1:13-14). It is HIS work, not ours (Eph. 2:10). Salvation is a miracle not a decision. It is the reviving and securing of a dead individual into the Kingdom of Life. There is no choice on our part to be made for we are dead and unable to choose anything. It’s a miracle! A free gift of life bestowed upon unworthy creatures who are transformed into the image of Christ!
This is of vital importance for two reasons. One, a person who maintains that THEY choose Jesus Christ, is filled with pride. Whether they acknowledge it or not, the root of free will is pride. If it was not God that choose you, then there is room for bragging. There must be something within the saved individual that is either not in the unsaved OR the saved has more of. Common sense, reasoning, intelligence, humility, awe, reverence…whatever the case may be, the saved individual must believe that they have more of that characteristic/quality than the individual who rejected the Gospel. This puts the person who choose to be saved in a position ABOVE the unsaved. This is a work and is why salvation does NOT come through this method. It creates a heart of pride and superiority in the saved individual. They look at the lost and think “Why doesn’t he see what I see?” The implication being that the unsaved individual is lacking something the saved has.
And two, no matter how trivial the individual views their choice, it hinders the glory of God. If man has ANY part whatsoever in salvation, it steals from the full glory due to God (Is. 42:8). Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9). ALL of it. He gets every single ounce of the glory. He sent the preacher (Rom. 10:15), He presented the Word, He gave the ears to hear, He granted repentance (2nd Tim. 2:25), He caused the heart to be regenerated, He baptized the individual into Christ, He sealed, He gave the gift of faith, He caused belief, He sanctifies, He produces and guarantees the results (Phi. 1:6). HE DOES IT ALL AND ALL GLORY GOES TO HIM! The moment an individual say’s “I chose,” he has diminished from God’s glory and taken some of it for himself. This is why salvation is a gift. It is ALL God and NONE of us.
Opening Statement (Armenian):
Here I will play my own "angelic" advocate. I will present the "other side of the coin" so-to-speak, and give my best armenian arguments, based on the things I have heard "free willers" say.
So why should we believe in free will? That is the question. It comes down to love. The Scriptures say that God IS love (1st John 4:8 “He
that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.”). What kind of love would it be to predetermine
some people for Heaven and some for hell?
What kind of love would create people without giving them a chance to
get to Heaven? That would not be the
definition of love.
Man has to have a choice in order for God to remain
loving. Otherwise we are all just
mindless robots. Some destined for
Heaven and some destined for hell.
Millions, nay billions, of people never had a shot at Heaven. They were born for some unknown reason and
set to end up in hell. Again, what kind
of love is that?
Think about Adam and Eve.
Adam was given a CHOICE on whether or not to eat the fruit of the
tree. He wasn’t destined to eat, it was
up to him. The love of God gave him the
free will decision to obey or not to obey.
Unfortunately, Adam did not obey.
And that same choice dwells with all of us. We each have a conscience. We each know right from wrong. We each have a responsibility to CHOOSE
right. We each have a responsibility to
CHOOSE God.
Think about that word, “responsibility.” It necessarily implies choice. For how can I be held responsible for
something I did not choose? How can I be
punished if I was just made this way, with no option to do anything about
it? There would be no responsibility there. We don’t hold our computers responsible for
going to the wrong web page. WE TOLD IT
to go there. WE are responsible. We don’t hold our cars responsible for
driving into the garage door. WE did it,
or there was manufacturer’s error.
Either way, the car itself is NOT responsible. Why?
Because it didn’t have a choice!
The
whole Gospel is dependent on man’s choice.
Think about it. The Scriptures
say “Repent and believe!” (Mark 1:15
“And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at
hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”) How can they if
they don’t have a choice? They say,
“Whosoever will believe will have eternal life.” (John
3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”) WHOSOEVER.
Anyone. Whoever chooses to come
to God. “Whoever calls upon the name of
the Lord.” (Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of
the Lord shall be saved.”).
WHOEVER! Anyone who chooses can
have it.
The
Scriptures say that “God is not willing that anyone should perish, but that ALL
should come to repentance.” (2nd Peter 3:9 “The
Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is
longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all
should come to repentance.”)He
desires EVERYONE to be saved. So what
stops it? People have to CHOOSE it. They have to WANT it. That is why people are held responsible.
Listen,
the idea of love is what we are talking about here. How is it loving to watch your children run
to their death, and have the ABILITY to stop it, but you don’t? Think about this, I heard someone put it this
way once. What if you had three children
running towards a cliff, and you could save them all, but you only chose to
save one. Is that love? NO! That
is evil! You allowed two of your
children to fall to their deaths without doing anything!
But
now picture this. Your children are
trapped in a maze and you cannot enter the maze to get them. But you CAN call out to them and tell them
which path to take. So you do. No it is the children’s responsibility to
LISTEN to you and to CHOOSE the right path.
If they disregard your voice, you did all you could. But they are responsible for not listening
and choosing the wrong path.
Love
doesn’t force people to love back. Love
offers love and present the choice to respond.
God loves us so much, that He gave us the opportunity to respond to His
free gift. He offers His love. How will we respond?
I
want to look more closely at those verse quoted earlier. Namely, John 3:16, Mark 1:15, Romans 10:13,
and 2 Peter 3:9.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not
perish, but have everlasting life.”
Like I mentioned earlier, the key
word here is “WHOSOEVER.” What does
that mean? Does that mean only the
elect? Does that mean only the
chosen? Or does it mean, WHOSOEVER? Anyone can come. The invitation is opened to the whole
WORLD. For it says that He loved the
WORLD, not just the chosen. Anyone who
believes can have everlasting life. It
is not limited.
Mark 1:15 “And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the
kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
Why make a demand to
repent and believe if it is not possible?
The idea of a calling IMPLIES that people have the ability to
respond. Otherwise why even ask for
people to repent and believe. Why not rather
just point out the saved and say, “Your one.
Believe and repent.” Why make a
general call for everyone to hear, if they don’t have the ability to
respond. And again, how could God hold
those who don’t respond responsible if they didn’t have the ability!!? It makes no sense.
Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon
the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Again we find the word
“whosoever.” Why make it so abundantly
clear that ANYONE can be saved, if only the elect really can? If it were only the elect, then the call
would not be whosoever, but rather, “The elect that call upon the name of the
Lord shall be saved.”
2nd Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his
promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not
willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
The only way that this
makes sense is if man has a choice. God
IS NOT WILLING. In other words, He
doesn’t want anyone to perish. He wants
ALL to come to repentance. Not just the
chosen. Not just the elect. He wants ALL to be saved and not to
perish. So why isn’t everyone
saved? BECAUSE GOD HAD GIVEN THEM THE
CHOICE. He loves them enough not to
coerce them. He wants them all, but
allows them to make their own choice.
That is love! It breaks His heart
to see people turn away, but He loves them enough to give them the free choice.
I will end this the same way I
started it. It’s about love. Which action is love? A God that forces some people to be with Him
and damns others without even giving them a chance? Or a God that presents an opportunity to
EVERYONE, whosoever…all, and gives them the free will to choose which path they
go down? It’s very clear which of those
is love. And remember, God IS love.
So that would be my opening presentation or argument. At this point I would assume that my debating opponent would bring up two issues. These seem to be the most common objections that those who hold the "free will" position refer to.
The individual will say that if God chooses and leaves to damnation individuals before time began WITHOUT any consideration of what the person will do or won't do, that it is unfair. They say that if a person doesn't even have a choice, then God is unjust and unloving.
The other thing they bring up is that God is love and doesn't want anyone to go to hell. And so a loving God wouldn't predestine some for damnation.
It is with these two objections in mind that I present my rebuttals:
REBUTTALS/QUESTIONS:
Question 1: (Armenian to Calvinist) "How could a loving God, predestine some for hell, without ever giving them a chance at salvation?"
REBUTTALS/QUESTIONS:
Question 1: (Armenian to Calvinist) "How could a loving God, predestine some for hell, without ever giving them a chance at salvation?"
With that said, if we come across Scriptures, natural phenomena, or ideas that seem to imply that God is not righteous, loving and good, we must submit these things to the absolute facts. Regardless of what we think we observe, know, or feel, the fact remains that God is righteous, loving and good. NOTHING He does is outside of these qualities.
Seeing as God defines these things, if we find Him doing something in the Scriptures or nature, that IN OUR OPINIONS, seems unrighteous, unloving or evil, we must come to the conclusion that our understanding is wrong and flawed and God remains these things. So when we look at Scriptures that say He hardens whom He will and has mercy on whom He will (Rom. 9:15), and our FEELING is to say that that appears unrighteous, we must remember the established fact that God is NOT unrighteous. So regardless of how I understand that statement and regardless of how it appears to me, I know that God is righteous, loving, and good, and so I can accept His predetermining hardening and mercy in faith. In other words, I know that God is good and His Word says that He chooses some and not others, so that action IS GOOD. Regardless of how I understand or don’t understand, God remains good.
I feel that the issue people have with God’s predestining salvation, is that they feel it is “unfair” or "unjust." And Paul knew that this would be the objection to God’s sovereignty in Romans chapter 9 and that is why he added the rhetorical question. His response is the best one: Who are you to question God? Who are YOU to say that His acts are unjust or unloving? Who are YOU to determine what those words mean? Does He not have the power over his own creatures to create some for mercy and some for destruction (Vrs. 20-21)? Just because we THINK this is unfair, we cannot twist Scriptures to get rid of this sovereignty. We must submit our understanding to the Scriptures and say, “While this appears to me to be unjust and unfair, I KNOW that God is righteous, loving and good and cannot sin. So HE understands how this act of hardening whom He will is good and righteous and loving. SO I BELIEVE IT!”
THAT is the appropriate response to Scripture. We are not to question God’s goodness. We are to believe that He is good no matter what. No matter how unjust something may seem to be to our puny and fallen minds, God is good and so what He does is good. PERIOD. If God chooses some and not others (as Scriptures clearly point out), it is a righteous and good and loving act. It is not wise to take the Scriptures and twist them to fit in my preconceived ideas of what goodness and justice are. God does not have to fit in the box of my mind. He is good AND He chooses some and hardens others.
Rebuttal: (Armenian)
God has given us the capacity to understand good and evil. We KNOW what good acts are. And not giving someone a chance is not a good act. And therefore, God cannot be responsible for it.
Final Statement: (Calvinist)
And what you did just there is what I am talking about. Rather than submit YOUR understanding and feelings to the Scriptures, you made the Scriptures and God submit to your understanding and feelings. YOU know what good is and therefore God cannot be anything but. You have twisted Scriptures to your own destruction. (2nd Peter 3:16)
Question 2: (Calvinist to Armenian) Please define what "predestination" means.
Well, the word means to "plan ahead of time." You see, God is all-knowing. He knows the end from the beginning. (Isaiah 46:10) And so if we look at the predestination of God in context, keeping this in mind, we will discover something. Let's look at the word from Romans 8:29-30.
"29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
So, WHO is it that God predestined? Those He FOREKNEW! God, in His infinite wisdom, from the very beginning of Creation, could see (foreknow) who was going to accept His salvation. He could see the entire scheme of creation, from start to finish, and knew exactly who would receive His gift by faith. And so knowing that, He set His plan in motion.
God is not some ruthless puppet master, who set in motion a scripted play with no adaptation, and now just sits back and watches. NO! He loves us. He wants ALL to come to repentance. And at the very beginning of Creation, before He even spoke "Let there be..." He knew that some would reject Him. How it must break His heart! To know before they are even born that they will turn away from Him! It is a tremendously sad thought.
So what does predestine mean? It means that God saw ahead of time who would choose Him and who wouldn't, and set in play a plan that would redeem those ones! Hallelujah!
Rebuttal: (Calvinist)
The word predestinate cannot mean what my
opponent has stated that it means. One, his idea of forknowledge is
skewed. Forknowledge is not “forseeing,” To understand what is
meant by forknow, we must first understand the Biblical sense of
“knowing.” I’d like to quickly present 3 examples: 1, in the garden
of eden, it is said that Adam KNEW his wife and she conceived (Gen. 4:1).
It was NOT that Adam “had knowledge of” Eve and she conceived. No, the word
in this case means a personal and intimate relationship with. He had a
personal and intimate relationship with eve and she conceived. 2.
The Scriptures say that of all the nations, God only KNEW Israel (Amos3:2). Was God unaware of the other nations? Did He not have
knowledge of them? Of course not! God had a personal and intimate
relationship with Isreal and not with other nations. And 3. At the
judgement day, Jesus looks upon those false disciples. Those who claimed
to be Christ followers and were not. And Jesus says to them, depart from
Me, I never KNEW you (Matt. 7:23. Was Jesus unaware of them? Did He
not have knowledge of their existence? Of course He did. But He
never had a personal and intimate relationship with them. Like He does
with His believers.
This is the Biblical idea of
knowing. A personal and intimate relationship. So to FOR-know, is
to have a personal and intimate relationship beforehand. That is why God
says we were chosen before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). Before
He ever said “let there be,” He had a personal and intimate relationship with
His chosen. He KNEW us before we were born. Before the world was
created.
The second quick point here is that IF the word
forknow meant forsee, then predestination would not fit in the sentence.
If God looked through the coridoors of time and saw those who would choose Him
and THEN destined their path, that would be POST destination, NOT PRE
destination. It would being destining AFTER the fact. But the Word
is PREdestined, not POSTdestined. Therefore it CANNOT mean to forsee, but
rather it means that those whom God had a personal and intimate relationship
with before the foundation of the world, He predestined their life on earth to
be conformed to the image of His Son.
Final Statement: (Armenian) God saw those who would choose to believe and those are the ones who are predestined. Before they were born, God knew that they would choose Him.
Question 3: (Armenian to Calvinist) "If God is not willing that any should perish, how can you turn around and say that He wills some to perish eternally in Hell? Isn't that a blatant contradiction?"
Answer: (Calvinist)
This is another common objection people will offer. God does say that He is not willing that any should perish (2nd Peter 3:9). The first thing to establish is that when a “seemingly” paradoxical statement in Scripture appears, we do NOT throw away one side of the issue. God is clearly sovereign and clearly chooses some while passing over others and leaving them in their dead state which will lead to judgment and destruction. How do we reconcile these issues WITHOUT disregarding one side?
There is a distinction between desire and plan. Both of which can be described with the word “will.” Let me give you an example of what I mean. It is not my will (desire) to spank my child. It hurts him and he cries and it saddens my heart. But it IS my will (plan) to raise a Godly child in the fear of the Lord. Part of that is Godly discipline. So, if my child sins, I will spank him even though it is not what I desire, in order to bring about my plan. To take it a step further, if I had all knowledge and I knew the kinds of sins that dwelt in my sons heart and I knew the circumstances that would bring about those sins, I would PLAN (will) to bring about those circumstances, in order to discipline him and drive those sins out of his heart.
And so it is with God, I believe. He does not WANT (will) to kill anyone. He doesn’t desire the death of the wicked (Ezek. 18:32). But His plan includes the destruction of the wicked (Pro. 16:4). His plan to glorify Jesus Christ as both righteous Judge AND merciful Savior, is predicated on the salvation of some and destruction of others (Rom. 9:22-23). Because God is good and righteous and loving, I can TRUST Him with this plan. That is what faith is all about. I can rely on God to create vessels for destruction and vessels for mercy while being shown as righteous and loving and good.
Rebuttal: (Armenian) It sounds to me like you’re saying that God is unable to design a world that He wants. As if He has two wills! God is certaintly able to produce a world that He wants, BUT because He loves us so much, He sets aside His wants and allows us the choice to decide our fates. He does not want anyone to perish, but He chooses to let those who choose to reject Him do so. That is great love. His love.
Final Statement: (Calvinist) Again, Mr. JK is redefining love. The same way that it is possible for us to have plans that sometimes oppose our desires, in order to bring about a greater good, I believe God works in that way as well, and I believe the Scriptures show this, as I have pointed out.
Question 4: (Calvinist to Armenian) "Does a born again person have the free will to lose their salvation? To choose to ultimately walk away from Christ and no longer believe? And on the same note, do the saints in eternity, that is in Heaven, have free will? Can they choose to sin? Can they leave Heaven?
Answer: (Armenian) Well, that is a complex question that deals in hypotheticals. I’ll try to address these separately. First, can a person choose to walk away from the faith? To lose their salvation? Ultimately, the choice is there, but this is one instance where God seems to step in and override our choice to save us from our own undoing. Jesus said that of those given to Him, He would not lose one (John 18:9). He said that nothing shall separate us and none shall snatch from His hand (Rom. 8:39 and John 10:28). So God’s promises and love for us prevent us from falling away. Once we choose to be a part of God’s family, He steps in a secures us. The free will remains, but God’s love secures.
Rebuttal: (Calvinist) This is double speak. We have free will but cannot access it? Then it is not FREE. By definition, if FREE will exists, then man MUST have the ability to walk away from the faith. To choose to lose their salvation. If not, then it is not freedom. It is BOUND. It is secured. The very opposite of freedom. And if being in Christ is GAIN, then prior to salvation it must have been even LESS. It’s why we are told that we were once SLAVES to sin but now are SLAVES to righteousness (Rom. 6:16-22). In both cases we are under a master and are not free. Our wills were once bound to sin and were servants to it’s desires. But now we are bound to Christ and servants to Him!
Final Statement: (Armenian) The bottom line is that free will still remains, but desires have changed. Men in Christ no longer desire to sin and depart (at least not ultimately so). Because the love of God overcomes them and prevents them.
Question 5: (Armenian to Calvinist) "What does the Bible mean when it says, 'Whosoever?" Doesn't that mean ANYONE?
Answer: (Calvinist)
Those who believe in man’s free will to decide his own fate, will often bring up two points. One is that in places like John 3:16, God says that: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Final Statement: (Calvinist) Again, Mr. JK is redefining love. The same way that it is possible for us to have plans that sometimes oppose our desires, in order to bring about a greater good, I believe God works in that way as well, and I believe the Scriptures show this, as I have pointed out.
Question 4: (Calvinist to Armenian) "Does a born again person have the free will to lose their salvation? To choose to ultimately walk away from Christ and no longer believe? And on the same note, do the saints in eternity, that is in Heaven, have free will? Can they choose to sin? Can they leave Heaven?
Answer: (Armenian) Well, that is a complex question that deals in hypotheticals. I’ll try to address these separately. First, can a person choose to walk away from the faith? To lose their salvation? Ultimately, the choice is there, but this is one instance where God seems to step in and override our choice to save us from our own undoing. Jesus said that of those given to Him, He would not lose one (John 18:9). He said that nothing shall separate us and none shall snatch from His hand (Rom. 8:39 and John 10:28). So God’s promises and love for us prevent us from falling away. Once we choose to be a part of God’s family, He steps in a secures us. The free will remains, but God’s love secures.
Those in eternity still have free will. Why wouldn’t they? The difference is that sin has vanished. The flesh has been conquered. They no longer desire sin, and therefore would never choose it. It’s not available to choose. But free will remains. Look at the story of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man asks for Lazarus to come and cool his tongue. Abraham says that he cannot and EVEN IF HE WANTED TO (implying choice…free will) he couldn’t because of the gulf. (Luke 16:24-26)
Rebuttal: (Calvinist) This is double speak. We have free will but cannot access it? Then it is not FREE. By definition, if FREE will exists, then man MUST have the ability to walk away from the faith. To choose to lose their salvation. If not, then it is not freedom. It is BOUND. It is secured. The very opposite of freedom. And if being in Christ is GAIN, then prior to salvation it must have been even LESS. It’s why we are told that we were once SLAVES to sin but now are SLAVES to righteousness (Rom. 6:16-22). In both cases we are under a master and are not free. Our wills were once bound to sin and were servants to it’s desires. But now we are bound to Christ and servants to Him!
The same can be said for those in Heaven. Sin is done away with. For corruption cannot inherit incorruption (1st Cor. 15:50) and sin cannot dwell with God (Hab. 1:13).
Final Statement: (Armenian) The bottom line is that free will still remains, but desires have changed. Men in Christ no longer desire to sin and depart (at least not ultimately so). Because the love of God overcomes them and prevents them.
Question 5: (Armenian to Calvinist) "What does the Bible mean when it says, 'Whosoever?" Doesn't that mean ANYONE?
Answer: (Calvinist)
Those who believe in man’s free will to decide his own fate, will often bring up two points. One is that in places like John 3:16, God says that: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
They say that the fact that God says “whosoever” means that anyone and everyone can be saved. The option is there for all. But is this what this verse means? Is it really saying that whoever chooses to believe will be saved? I don’t think so.
I don’t think that the verse here is presenting an ultimatum. In other words, I don’t think it is offering a choice by saying “whosoever chooses to believe will be given eternal life.” No, I actually think that this verse is IDENTIFYING not presenting an opportunity. What I mean is that it is saying that we can identify exactly who it is that has everlasting life. It is whosoever believes. How do you know who is saved and inheriting eternal life? Why, its whosoever believes in the crucifixion and resurrection of the atoning work of Jesus Christ!
But even if I was wrong and it really is presenting a choice, the fact remains that we are dead in our trespasses and sins and dead people cannot choose. So it is up to God to activate faith in individuals and give them the ability to believe. And that goes to WHOSOEVER God chooses. So yes. Whosoever believes can be saved but only those God chooses have the ABILITY to believe.
Rebuttal: (Armenian) It is very clear that salvation is available to anyone. And whosoever proves that. Whosoever believes. That is, whosoever chooses to put their faith in Jesus Christ will be saved.
Last Statement: (Calvinist) I think I’ve made my point. While salvation is offered as a general call to all, only those whom the Holy Spirit gives ears to hear will respond.
Question 6: (Calvinist to Armenian) "What is the FIRST cause of mans believe? That is to say, what is the VERY FIRST SPARK that causes a man to believe on Jesus Christ for salvation? And why does it happen in Him, but not in others?
Answer: (Armenian) The first cause is faith. God has given a measure of faith (Rom. 12:3) to everyone and it is up to them what they do with it. That faith is the first cause. It is up to an to each individual to activate and tap into it. It’s like a jailer who offers a key to anyone who will take it. The key is what opens the door to freedom, but the men must choose to reach out for it. God initiates by offering salvation to everyone. Each person must then make their own choice on whether or not they will take that offer. The reason some are saved and others are not is simply choice. Some choose and others don’t.
Rebuttal: (Calvinist) There are so many things erreonous in that statement, let me try to point them out. First of all, Romans 12 is speaking to the BRETHREN. Believers who are in the faith. To each of THEM a measure of faith has been given. Not to all men. For it is the gift of faith that saves (Eph. 2:8). Faith is salvific. So if everyone had it, then everyone would be saved. But not everyone IS saved because not everyone has been given faith! Secondly, in the picture of the jailer and the prisoners, one crucial element is missed, and I think this is THE key that is missed with all those who believe in free will. The key is offered and whosoever will reach out for it can have it, BUT…THE PRISONERS ARE DEAD!! They don’t have the ability to reach out for the key. They are DEAD in adam, DEAD in trespasses in sins, not only unwilling but UNABLE. God must first ACTIVATE THEM. God must CHOOSE to awaken them and give them a heart and eyes and ears. THEN they will hear the call of the Shepherd in the general call to take the key and they will respond. But ONLY AFTER GOD AWAKENS THEM, and not all are awakened. And finally, my last question remains unanswered. If some chose and others don’t, WHY? WHAT CAUSED THEM TO CHOOSE? You can’t say some chose and some didn’t and leave it at that. Because CHOICE is reactionary and not the cause. What CAUSED them to choose. If not God, then it must be some inherit quality or characteristic which leads to boasting and pride.
Final Statement: (Armenian) Everyone has a choice.
Question 7: (Armenian to Calvinist) "Much like my last question, many times the Bible says that God wants all men to be saved. His WILL is for ALL to be saved. What does all mean if it doesn't mean all?
The other issue that someone who believes in free will may bring up, is that the Bible says that Jesus Christ died for ALL, not just the elect. Well, there are places where Jesus said that His death only applied to believers (John 15:13-14; John 10:15). But there are times where the Bible says “all.” Specifically I am thinking about 1st John 2:2. Although Calvinistic theology states that Jesus Christ died only for the elect (Limited Atonement…The “L” in TULIP), I personally believe a more Biblical term would be “Limited Application.” Whether or not Jesus Christ died for just the elect or for the entire world is not the main question here in my opinion. The question is, does the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ get APPLIED to the whole world. And of course the answer is no. Unless you believe in the unbiblical doctrine of universal salvation.
The fact of the matter is, not everyone gets into Heaven on judgment day. The death of Jesus Christ does not APPLY to all. Only those who believe. And that brings us right back to ability. Who has the “ABILITY” to believe? No one. For we are all dead in Adam. So it is up to God to choose to give the gift of faith and with that salvation to whosoever He chooses. And then the blood of Jesus Christ is applied to that individual. So the atonement IS limited to those whom God chooses.
Rebuttal: (Armenian) I don’t believe that mister Ingram has answered the question. If all doesn’t mean all, then everything is thrown into the trash. Because if the laws of language don’t apply, then there is no hope for clear understanding. All means all. God desires ALL to be saved. Not just the elect.
Last Statement: (Calvinist)
_________________________Then I would say, “what does elect mean?” If all means all then elect means elect. Elect means chosen. SOME get chosen some don’t. The laws of language.
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CONCLUSSION:
What is the purpose of existence? Why does humanity exist? God was not lacking anything when He made us. He wasn’t “needing” of worship or love or companionship (Acts 17:25). The Trinitarian God was self-sufficient and fully satisfied within Himself. So why are we here? Is it not for the glorification and magnification of Jesus Christ (1st Peter 4:11; 1st Cor. 10:31) ? Is it not for His pleasure that all things were created (Rev. 4:11; Col. 1:16)? Is not the purpose of life to show Christ as magnificent?
Man is totally depraved. Or to put it in Scriptural terms, he is dead in his trespasses and sins. And as dead men, we are completely unable to do ANYTHING. Including choose. For to make a choice to believe is a good thing and we know that in man there is nothing good (Rom. 7:18). All good comes from God (John 15:5). So the ability to believe is simply not present in fallen man. This idea of prevenient grace is not Biblical. Man is completely dead, not partially dead, or dead except for his will.
As dead men, we need a miracle. Thank God that He provides One! Through the power of the Holy Spirit, God moves upon His predestined vessels who were chosen before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-5)and resurrects them to life giving them the gift of faith. This giving of life is done through His Spirit. His Spirit is what imparts life (John 6:63; Acts 17:28) and it is His Spirit that comes and lives in us, so that it is no longer us who live but Christ in us (Gal. 2:20). And Christ in us believes unto salvation (2nd Tim. 2:13) and imparts His righteousness (Phi. 3:9; Rom. 3:22). This is irresistible grace. The Holy Spirit overcomes our dead spirits and draws us unto Father (John 6:44)!
The bottom line is this: Who is the final say in whether or not a person is saved? What is the first cause in salvation? Why some and not others? The only possible answers are God or man. Either God is sovereign and decides who will enter Heaven, or man is sovereign and decides for himself. As sovereignty is a characteristic that only belongs to God, on this question hinges the ultimate meaning. Is man God or is God God? Is this not the original whisper from satan in the garden of eden? “YOU shall be as god knowing right from wrong.” (Gen. 3:1-5)
The deciding factor of life belongs to the One who can claim the title of God. So who is it? You or God? Free will is that whisper from satan. YOU CHOOSE. YOU DECIDE. Don’t fall for the lure of satan. Humble yourself before God and submit to Him AS God. Full God. In control of all. Otherwise I am afraid you are guilty of self-exaltation. No matter how miniscule the glory, you are taking some of it. And this in essence is a declaration of yourself as God and you seat yourself on His throne. Is that not the same path Lucifer took?
Conclusion: (Armenian) - I am afraid that I will have to admit defeat in this debate. Mr. Ingram has shown plainly in the Scriptures that salvation is of the Lord. ALL of salvation. When we try to take the choice upon ourselves, we are stealing from His glory and taking credit. This causes us to harbor pride in our hearts. It is all God. I see that now. Dead men can do nothing. And we are all BORN dead in Adam. Only by God moving upon a person, which He chooses to do through the preaching of the Gospel, can they be regenerated and given ears to hear. I repent of my erroneous views.
1st Corinthians 2:14 “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
1st Corinthians 15:21-22 “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
Ephesians 2:1 “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;”
John 11:43 “And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.”
John 11:25 “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”
Romans 10:17 “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
1st Corinthians 1:21 “For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”
Ezekiel 36:26 “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.”
Matthew 13:11-16 “He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.”
Deuteronomy 29:4 “Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.”
Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
John 3:8 “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”
Proverbs 8:13 “The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.”
Psalms 51:17 “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.”
John 14:23 “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”
Ephesians 4:30 “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”
Ephesians 1:13-14 “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”
Isaiah 42:8 “I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.”
Jonah 2:9 “But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord."
Romans 10:15 “And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!”
2nd Timothy 2:25 “In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;”
Philippians 1:6 “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:”
Psalms 89:14 “Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.”
Psalms 11:7 “For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.”
1st John 2:1 “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:”
1st John 4:8 “He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.”
Mark 10:18 “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”
Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”
Romans 9:15 “For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”
Romans 9:20-21 “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”
Romans 9:11-24 “(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
Romans 9:22-23 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"
2nd Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
Ezekiel 18:32 “For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.”
Proverbs 16:4 “The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.”
Acts 17:25 “Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;”
1st Peter 4:11 “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
1st Corinthians 10:31 “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.”
Revelation 4:11 “Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”
Colossians 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:”
Romans 7:18 “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”
John 15:5 “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”
Ephesians 1:4-5 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”
John 6:63 “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
Acts 17:28 “For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.”
Galatians 2:20 “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”
2nd Timothy 2:13 “If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.”
Philippians 3:9 “And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”
Romans 3:22 “Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”
John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Genesis 3:1-5 “Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
